Curse

Sha Noran · Jun 22, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

*Sigh

I know you guys aren't just trying to rag on me, but if you're going to post something in a debate-like way, try not to sound like I'm just an idiot.

Lasher Dragon: Oath Shot is fine and good, but you absolutely should not be wasting your Elite slot on it. There are a good deal of other Elites that are better. If you want to run stances, bring Escape, not Oath Shot. Whirling--> Escape--> Lightning--> Throw Dirt--> Escape. You don't need to OS anything because you can use Escape twice due to its recharge. There just is no PvE reason to run Oath Shot when you're with a group other than possibly a R/Rt Spirit Spammer. Sorry, but this argument is not going anywhere. Use it if you want, I guess, but there's always a better choice.

XvArchonvX: Yes, never. Unless you know ahead of time a specific spot where it would help. Perhaps that was not clear in my original post, I'll edit it since you seem to think that's the biggest deal ever. I specifically mention Winter as a viable Ranger Variable, and your other examples are decent I guess. Running Brambles+Lacerate will deal less damage overall than actually just, KILLING stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Of course this depends, but this is where knowledge of the area you are exploring is best.

That's what I've been trying to say this whole time. You'll know when to use them.

I can't believe you seriously want to run Oath Shot+stances with a trapper build... you should go cap Trapper's Focus, it's 150% more effective than what you're suggesting.

I'm not going to debate your build as it applies to PvP, as this thread is designed to be a PvE discussion. As for your stats regarding how much damage conditions do over time... how about instead you actually bring some attacks and deal some real damage? Kindle+Penetrating-->Punishing= ~150 damage. In one volley, I've dealt more damage than your Bleeding did in 21 seconds.

As for your Flame Trap argument... why not bring Barbed Trap instead? This causes some nice DoTs from Bleeding and Cripples your enemy away from your casters. Crippling them is much more effective than scattering them, in my opinion.

XvArchonvX · Jun 22, 2006, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

XvArchonvX: Yes, never. Unless you know ahead of time a specific spot where it would help. Perhaps that was not clear in my original post, I'll edit it since you seem to think that's the biggest deal ever. I specifically mention Winter as a viable Ranger Variable, and your other examples are decent I guess. Running Brambles+Lacerate will deal less damage overall than actually just, KILLING stuff.

I think what this boils down to is that I believe spirits are a more viable option than you do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I can't believe you seriously want to run Oath Shot+stances with a trapper build... you should go cap Trapper's Focus, it's 150% more effective than what you're suggesting.

While Trapper's Focus is a good elite, being able to keep up a constant evasive stance allows a strong defense along with prevention of interuption. Interuption does happen occaisionally, but it is not often since you only get hit 25%of the time. Unless there are a lot of enemies specifically targetting you, however, most of your traps should be laid without interuption. Defensive stances also lessen the chances that you will be interupted with a skill like Disrupting Chop, Disrupting Lunge or Distracting Shot that will force an extra time on the skill's recharge.

Basically this boils down to a preference of offense or defense. Trappers focus works fine if there are no enemies with interuption skills attacking you and also allows for a greater likeliness to lay a trap without being interupted. Oath Shot allows a greater spamability of traps due to the ability to recharge all your skills instantly every 20 seconds is the player to decrease damage taken while trapping, though the possibility of getting interupted by a common attack is more prevalent.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that it boils down to a matter of preference. I think your suggestion is fine, however I would appreciate it if you didn't undermind my suggestion by just saying that your build is "150%" more effective than mine. If you have a counter argument I would be grateful if you would share, but simply stating that your build is better does not hold strong ground. If you came about this statistic of 150% by some manner, I would love to hear it, but something tells me it is simply an overexaggeration meant used in a demeaning sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I'm not going to debate your build as it applies to PvP, as this thread is designed to be a PvE discussion.

I think an Oath Shot trapper could work fine in PvE, but admittedly I think trappers focus would work better in most instances of PvE. The only time I would really think otherwise is if you were going against enemies that used something like Distracing shot, Disrupting Chop, etc that could disable your traps for a long time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

As for your stats regarding how much damage conditions do over time... how about instead you actually bring some attacks and deal some real damage? Kindle+Penetrating-->Punishing= ~150 damage. In one volley, I've dealt more damage than your Bleeding did in 21 seconds.

My reasoning for this is that the damage done by Kindle+Penetrating is decreased drastically by later enemies later on in the game with high armor levels. Also letting conditions do your damage for you allows the player to do other things such as lay a trap, blind foes attacking your monk, poison other enemies or interupt.

Basically your suggestion = more direct damage

My suggestion = less damage, but more versatility

I'll leave it at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

As for your Flame Trap argument... why not bring Barbed Trap instead? This causes some nice DoTs from Bleeding and Cripples your enemy away from your casters. Crippling them is much more effective than scattering them, in my opinion.

The only reason I don't use barbed trap is because I already do bleeding from Hunter's Shot and the objective is to make enemies run from casters. While Barbed Trap would make enemies run slower, they tend to run shorter distances before turning around attacking again. Barbed Trap does however allow casters to flee from them easier, however setting enemies on fire also kills them off faster which is the best way to save your party.

It might be suggested that I replace Hunter's Shot with Penetrating Shot. A large reason I keep Hunter's Shot is because I use Savage Shot often as an instant fire shot to spread Poison to other enemies quickly as well as to interupt. This constant spamming of Savage Shot can wear a little energy heavy, so because of my play style, Hunter's Shot became the best shot for me.

With this said, a perfectly legitamate alteration of my suggested build may be replacing Hunter's shot with Penetrating Shot and replacing Flame Trap with Barbed Trap. This would likely work just as well if not better, depending on who was using the build.

XvArchonvX · Jun 22, 2006, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanizeddeath

Not so much anymore, with the new limit on minions they are dying anyway. This speeds up the process of course, but with so much damage from EoE anyway, there will be enough death to make up for the faster loss of minions. (I didn't see any drastic difference at least.)

And yes, the first time I saw the Afflicted, my first response was to reload my AR.

Never thought about it that way, but you bring a good point.

Sha Noran · Jun 22, 2006, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I think what this boils down to is that I believe spirits are a more viable option than you do.

Yep.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Oath Shot allows a greater spamability of traps due to the ability to recharge all your skills instantly every 20 seconds

Your traps (not counting Dust) recharge faster than 20 seconds anyway, with Serpant's Quickness.

The 150% was a joke. :-D

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

My reasoning for this is that the damage done by Kindle+Penetrating is decreased drastically by later enemies later on in the game with high armor levels.

A reasonable concern, but running the skill set I've suggested deals massive damage against anything in FoW. Try it. :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I'll leave it at that.

Sounds good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

With this said, a perfectly legitamate alteration of my suggested build may be replacing Hunter's shot with Penetrating Shot and replacing Flame Trap with Barbed Trap. This would likely work just as well if not better, depending on who was using the build.

Changing your build in that way would be great. I think you will see a noticable difference.

XvArchonvX · Jun 22, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Changing your build in that way would be great. I think you will see a noticable difference.

I used to run that build. However I personally have found best results with my current build.

Sha Noran · Jun 22, 2006, 08:40 AM // 08:40

The damage from Penetrating Attack is reliable while the Bleeding from Hunter's Shot is not. That's why I prefer Penetrating.

I'm usually running with competant groups, and therefore I next to never have a tank who argos so badly that I would want to break that argo with AoE (Flame Trap). Barbed Trap's Bleeding is reliable and the bonus Cripple is awesome. That's why I'd run those two rather than the two you have.

Lasher Dragon · Jun 22, 2006, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Another advantage Poison Arrow has over Apply Poison is that once your target is poisoned, he cannot be poisoned again until the original poisoning wears off. Shooting him again and again with poisoned arrows is a waste of time when you could be using a much more effective preparation, i.e. Kindle Arrows.

Wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Longbow: We'll start with my favorite type of bow: the Longbow. As it's name implies, it has a long range; in fact, the longest in the game. There is no trick to this. Longbows have the longest range of any bow, any weapon in the game. It's commonly thought that your range with one of these fine weapons is about an agro bubble and a half, but if you have the height advantage you can shoot much further than that. I personally have shot foes up to two agro bubbles away from me. For pulling, there is no other option. Period.

Wrong again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Now that I've made that clear and highlighted the best part of the bow, we'll go through it's defects. It's long range forces each of your arrows into a high arc, giving enemies an unfortunately long time to dodge your attacks. The high arc of a longbow's arrows also means two other things: slow bow-to-enemy time, and only a medium refire rate. The time between arrows has been generally agreed to be about 2.7 seconds, which seems bad, but you have to understand that with a Ranger, your rate of fire is going to be slow no matter what, and will be strongly affected by what skills you’re using. The fastest of the bows (the short bow) only fires arrows every 2 seconds. In my opinion, the extra range is worth the wait.

Longbow refires in 2.4 seconds - the horn bows are the ones that take 2.7.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Flatbow: Oftentimes, people make the unfortunate mistake in assuming that the flatbow is somehow like the short bow; not so. It fires much faster than a longbow, but sacrifices both accuracy and range to achieve this. The arc of your shots is much, much higher, which means that your arrows will not compensate for enemy movement nearly as well as they would with a longbow.

Wrong yet again. LONGBOW & FLATBOW HAVE THE SAME RANGE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Storm Bow=Longbow
Eternal Bow=Flatbow
Shadow Bow=Horn Bow

Eternal is a Recurve type bow.

XvArchonvX · Jun 22, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

The damage from Penetrating Attack is reliable while the Bleeding from Hunter's Shot is not. That's why I prefer Penetrating.

I'm usually running with competant groups, and therefore I next to never have a tank who argos so badly that I would want to break that argo with AoE (Flame Trap). Barbed Trap's Bleeding is reliable and the bonus Cripple is awesome. That's why I'd run those two rather than the two you have.

You're not understanding me. The use of flame trap that you assume is foolish. Flame trap should not be dropped at the tanks feet to break aggro from him. It is to be dropped in the back lines when an enemy goes beyond the tank. I don't care how perfect your tank in your group is, if an ally within range of an enemy, the enemy will occaisionally break from the tank and attack that ally. For a monk to heal the tank, that monk must be in range, which puts that monk in range of any enemy that is directly parralell to the tank's left or right side or anywhere behind. For a caster to cast a spell on an enemy, they must be in range with that enemy. AoE damage can encourage enemies to break aggro, but it is not the only reason that an enemy will switch targets.

The proper use of Flame Trap is to be dropped either ahead of the tank then to use Escape to get behind the tank before the enemies turn around and start heading back or to drop Flame Trap at the feet of enemies that have gotten past the tank.

Also even if you always have a tank that can hold all of the aggro all of the time (must be nice to live in a perfect world), most of us who play GW often have to play with PUGs and henchmen because our good tank isn't always online, not always there every step of the way to help us with every mission. Especially when you play with hench, no matter what class you play as, you are expected to tank while you aggro enemies intil he hench get into combat mode, where you can go to the back lines to a degree and attack yourself.

A crippling trap only keeps the enemy snared near your allies and does less damage than Flame Trap, leaving them alive longer to return and attack your allies in the back again.

Also I use Hunter's Shot because it is what is most energy efficient the way I use my build. For half the energy of Penetrating shot I can shoot an arrow that has at most 2 points less damage bonus and no 20% penetration (which depending on the enemy can be about 5 points, give or take depending on the armor level). Bleeding is a bonus, not something to rely on. Enemies in PvE don't run as much as PvP, but understanding them will allow you to capitalize on everytime they move if you know them well enough.

If you don't have the same success with this build as I do, that's fine, but please stop saying that my build is bad or is wrong just because you can't find a way to use it to your liking.

Sha Noran · Jun 22, 2006, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Lasher Dragon: Cute, but trying to just post in a way that makes it look like everything I say is wrong isn't very polite.

1) He can technically be re-poisoned, but its not doing you any good to extend the poisoning until your original poisoning wears off. Running Apply Poison is simply not as effective as running Poison Arrow with another prep, i.e. Kindle. Sorry. You're wrong. Disagree all you want, but I can deal more damage my way.

2) You're right, I should fix that, as it's range is equal to that of a Longbow.

3) Correct again. Typo on my part.

4) Correct. I should (will) fix that.

5) Again, correct. I fixed a seperate part where I had that wrong and missed that part. Thanks for pointing those errors out.

XvArchonvX: Actually, according to your statistics regarding Bleeding, Barbed Trap would deal more damage than Flame Trap, particularly since the enemies will run out of it.

No need to get snippy. I hench plenty of things.

If you just stand there and tank stuff with henchies, you're going to die. Kiting is your friend, and Crippling your opponent allows for more effecient kiting.

Use Hunter's Shot if you want dude, I'm obviously not going to convince you otherwise. It's simply not as effective, but whatever floats your boat.

XvArchonvX · Jun 22, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Lasher Dragon: Cute, but trying to just post in a way that makes it look like everything I say is wrong isn't very polite.

True he is guilty of this, but unfortunately you have had the same attitude. The following quote exemplorates your use of the same demeaning manner. Hopefully we can all relax and debate this with a bit less ferocity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

1) He can technically be re-poisoned, but its not doing you any good to extend the poisoning until your original poisoning wears off. Running Apply Poison is simply not as effective as running Poison Arrow with another prep, i.e. Kindle. Sorry. You're wrong. Disagree all you want, but I can deal more damage my way.

You had stated previously:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Another advantage Poison Arrow has over Apply Poison is that once your target is poisoned, he cannot be poisoned again until the original poisoning wears off.

Lasher Dragon was correct in stating that this statement not valid. A test can be done against the suit of armors in the Isle of the Nameless. Activate Apply Poison and shoot two targets once each. Wait about 5 seconds then shoot one of them again. After this watch both targets and you will notice that one target is poisoned about 5 seconds longer than the other.

However you had contradicted yourself in the statement before this one by stating the effect of poison correctly. My assumption is that you did not express yourself the way you intended in the incorrect statement.

As for the effectiveness of Apply Poison, the advantage is that while Poison Arrow may poison one target once, Apply Poison can poison your whole opposing force with one preparation, thus the best use of this skill is to spread poison to soften up the enemy. Each additional enemy you poison multiplies the damage done by poison. Apply Poison also leaves your elite skill free to use something that may suit your build more to your liking. I prefer Escape {E} since I get a running skill that is only 4 seconds shy of the duration of Storm Chaser and an evasive skill that has half the recharge of Whirling Defenses and a longer effect than Lightning Reflexes.

While Poison arrow does have good uses in some builds, it does not suit mine.

XvArchonvX: Actually, according to your statistics regarding Bleeding, Barbed Trap would deal more damage than Flame Trap, particularly since the enemies will run out of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

If you just stand there and tank stuff with henchies, you're going to die. Kiting is your friend, and Crippling your opponent allows for more effecient kiting.

Again, I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I don't suggest that one should play tank when with henchies. However henchies will not attack the enemy for you. They also take a few seconds to get into full offensive mode. If you kite too much when you have a party full of henchmen, they will think you are fleeing and will start running away. Kiting is great when you are in a group with real people. As for crippling, you don't run run any crippling skill in your normal build so I assume you run a different one for using henchmen unless you have some other tactic for attacking enemies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Use Hunter's Shot if you want dude, I'm obviously not going to convince you otherwise. It's simply not as effective, but whatever floats your boat.

I'm questioning whether you have tried this build before you have criticized it the way you have. Penetrating Shot costs twice the energy as Hunter's Shot and is too energy heavy to allow me to spam Savage Shot in a manner that allows me to poison all opposing enemies in as quickly as possible.

I'm afraid you are judging the skill by numbers alone and not by it's use in the build I use. Skills really only take you so far, it's how you use them that give them any effectiveness.

xnightmythx · Jun 23, 2006, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Sha’s Judge’s Barrage Build:
-Savage Shot
-Penetrating Attack
-Barrage {Elite}
-Judge’s Insight
-Troll Unguent
-Smite Hex
-Storm Chaser
-Ranger Variable

I have question regarding this build. Armor penetration stacks when the skill or weapon attribute says, "+" %
(dont go nuts on me guys this is what I was told)
Example is Judges Insight has +20% AP, and my 20/20 string is a +20% mod, therefore giving me 40% theoretical AP. Now I know its not 40% because there are many other factors, Im just using the numbers for example.

My question is, why Penetrating attack? It says 20% AP, not +20% ap.
Is it because you need it in case JI gets stripped off?

I am planning to raid FOW with my guildies and was actually planning on taking this build because I heard its does great in this area. A few days ago I set up a bow and added a Grip of Death Bane I had in my storage. It's 20% against the dead. Any other suggestions for FOW? BTW our intention is to reach the Forge Armor area.

Oh yeah! Great Job Sha! I know there are dissagrements, but you guys are all doing a great job educating the Rangers that read this thread.

XvArchonvX · Jun 23, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

Sha’s Judge’s Barrage Build:
-Savage Shot
-Penetrating Attack
-Barrage {Elite}
-Judge’s Insight
-Troll Unguent
-Smite Hex
-Storm Chaser
-Ranger Variable

I have question regarding this build. Armor penetration stacks when the skill or weapon attribute says, "+" %
(dont go nuts on me guys this is what I was told)
Example is Judges Insight has +20% AP, and my 20/20 string is a +20% mod, therefore giving me 40% theoretical AP. Now I know its not 40% because there are many other factors, Im just using the numbers for example.

My question is, why Penetrating attack? It says 20% AP, not +20% ap.
Is it because you need it in case JI gets stripped off?

I am planning to raid FOW with my guildies and was actually planning on taking this build because I heard its does great in this area. A few days ago I set up a bow and added a Grip of Death Bane I had in my storage. It's 20% against the dead. Any other suggestions for FOW? BTW our intention is to reach the Forge Armor area.

Oh yeah! Great Job Sha! I know there are dissagrements, but you guys are all doing a great job educating the Rangers that read this thread.

I'm not sure if this will help answer your question, but I did find this link at www.guildwiki.org:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Armor_penetration

If I'm reading this right (which I have not proven myself to have the best track record for accurate interperetations of read information), I believe that those armor penetrations should stack, but don't quote me on that.

Whether they do or not, I think Sha's Barrage build would be a very good choice for a FoW run. If I were you though, I would definately put in rebirth as the ranger variable.

Sha Noran · Jun 23, 2006, 07:36 AM // 07:36

^^ That's what I would have said. Hax no wai!!1

The AP should stack, and it would add it in a way so that you're Penetrating Attack is 20% AP then +20% more for Judges. As you said, it's not 40% because it's 20%, then 20% off of that, but you know, Math hurts.

XvArchonvX: Look, you guys don't seem to get what I'm saying about Poison, or any condition for that matter. Yes, hitting someone with Poison again before the original Poison duration is ended refreshes the duration, and in that sense I suppose you are "Poisoning him again". The problem is that you really don't need to refresh the Poison duration again until the original duration is nearly over. Think of it like hexes... Conjure Phantasm is a good example. You could hit the same enemy with Conjure Phantasm again and again everytime it's recharged, but it's much more Energy effecient to wait until the original hex is nearly over/over and then re-apply it. The same goes with conditions. You don't need to be Poisoning the same guy again and again. You only need to hit him with Poison Arrow once in a while to keep the Poison going forever, and in the mean time you can be dealing loads of extra damage with more useful prep, i.e. Kindle Arrows. (Like a broken record...)

As for Hunter's Shot, I'm just going to not even argue with anything you say that acts as though I haven't used a skill. Yes, I've tried both. Penetrating/Sundering Attack is the single most damaging non-elite Bow Attack available. It's very worth 10 energy (really ~6). You're biggest argument for Hunter's seems to be it's low, 5 Energy cost. Your build is horrible about Energy, and that's causing you to lose firepower. I'm sorry but your Poison build is simply not as effective or damaging as mine.

Let's assume 0 expertise, versus 5 enemies, just to make these numbers easy:

Your build uses Apply Poison as a prep so that every shot Poisons your opponent, then spreads this poison "quickly" by Savage Shotting around the group.

Apply Poison (15e)+ Savage Shots(x5) (50e)= 65 Energy

My build uses Kindle Arrows as a prep so that each shot deals a bit of extra damage, then uses Poison Arrow to spread some degen around the group.

Kindle Arrows (5e)+ Poison Arrow(x5) (25e)= 30 Energy.

The numbers arent lying. You say that you're build is too energy intensive to use Penetrating Attack, and it's your own fault. Let's take another look at the build you posted....

Hunter's Shot
Savage Shot
Apply Poison
Throw Dirt
Flame Trap
Escape {E}
Troll Unguent
Rez of choice

Part of the problem is how spread out your build is... you need to stop trying to run Traps at the same time as you run a real Ranger build. Do this, and you can drop Escape and Barbed/Flame, allowing for a much more efficient Elite, i.e. Poison Arrow. With Poison Arrow, you certainly don't need Apply Poison, so we can drop that for a more damaging prep, i.e. Kindle Arrows. Now the build is much more Energy efficient, so you can drop Hunter's and bring a more powerful skill, i.e. Penetrating Attack. We'll keep Troll, Throw Dirt and the Rez, leaving you with an open spot. I would suggest either a defensive stance or a sprint... so you can pick, Whirling or Storm Chaser. That gives us:

-Savage Shot
-Penetrating Attack
-Poison Arrow {E}
-Kindle Arrows
-Troll Unguent
-Throw Dirt
-Storm Chaser/Whirling Defense
-Rez of choice

I suggest you try it before continuing to argue; that build is much more efficient and effective than your originally posted one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

Oh yeah! Great Job Sha! I know there are dissagrements, but you guys are all doing a great job educating the Rangers that read this thread.

Thank you. I certainly hope so.

XvArchonvX · Jun 23, 2006, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

XvArchonvX: Look, you guys don't seem to get what I'm saying about Poison, or any condition for that matter. Yes, hitting someone with Poison again before the original Poison duration is ended refreshes the duration, and in that sense I suppose you are "Poisoning him again". The problem is that you really don't need to refresh the Poison duration again until the original duration is nearly over. Think of it like hexes... Conjure Phantasm is a good example. You could hit the same enemy with Conjure Phantasm again and again everytime it's recharged, but it's much more Energy effecient to wait until the original hex is nearly over/over and then re-apply it. The same goes with conditions. You don't need to be Poisoning the same guy again and again. You only need to hit him with Poison Arrow once in a while to keep the Poison going forever, and in the mean time you can be dealing loads of extra damage with more useful prep, i.e. Kindle Arrows. (Like a broken record...)

Even though the way you had initially expressed yourself in regards tothe use of poison produced an incorrect statement, I assumed from your later statements that you did understand it's effect. As for the effectiness, the point of using Apply Poison, I believe the understanding is still on your part. I know that it is not truly needed to reapply the poison until the last possible second. The point is that if you have to change targets, you don't have to switch back right before the poison wears off on your initial target and poison him again. The second factor that was an advantage was that I could poison the entire opposing force faster. First poison the warriors charging in, then after target a caster in the back. By this time they are generally casting their first or second spell. Using Savage Shot with Apply Poison allows me to shoot and poison that second target as quickly as possible and likely interupt that target as well. My third factor I had presented was that instead of shooting poison arrow, I was free to do other things, like interupt, trap, kite, etc. Finally, Apply Poison leaves my elite skill open to use escape which effectively is an evasive and running skill put into one. With the extra slot that I have saved, I can now trap as well.

You may notice I just basically repeated myself, but I encourage you to read it again if you still think I missed your point. Maybe this will make it clearer:

Your point: Additional poison is not needed until the initial poison has worn off

My point: There are other factors that make apply poison more valuable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

As for Hunter's Shot, I'm just going to not even argue with anything you say that acts as though I haven't used a skill. Yes, I've tried both. Penetrating/Sundering Attack is the single most damaging non-elite Bow Attack available. It's very worth 10 energy (really ~6). You're biggest argument for Hunter's seems to be it's low, 5 Energy cost. Your build is horrible about Energy, and that's causing you to lose firepower. I'm sorry but your Poison build is simply not as effective or damaging as mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

My point is this: While this isn't the most damaging ranger build, you will be able to let your conditions for you while you are free to interupt (since you can't interupt as easily while spamming attack skills) as well as to blind and use other tactics that can be advantageous to your team.

I never claimed my build was more damaging, but I think you are short sighted when you accuse it of being less effective.

If a group wants a damage dealer, a ranger unfortunately is not the best choice most of the time. Elementalists, Necros, Assasins, Warriors and likely channeling Ritualists can do more damage. Of course there are exceptions like barrage rangers against large groups, but in general, they can't match other classes since enemy armor can bring a bow attack to near nothing while other professions have attack skills with higher bonuses or spells with much higher damage and/or armor negating properties.

What advantage does a ranger have might be asked. They have diversity. They can blind and cripple the warrior/assasin as well as interupt the ele/necro/ritualist enemy monk. When used right, a ranger can shut down other professions much like a mesmer can. Rangers have the most superior interupt skills as well as the most and cheapest condition causing skills compared to any class. With proper skill bar you can inflict just about every condition in the game short of deep wound, disease, and weakness using ranger skills alone.

The purpose of my build is NOT a damage build. It is a support build. It has the ability to deal substantial damage with condition degen, but it also plays as a protector to allies in the back. if you simply stand in one spot spamming arrows and occasionally drop a trap at any cluster of enemies you see, this build will not be effective for you. The key is understanding how the skills work best to help your team. A trap dropped at the feet of your casters in the back when they have an enemy warrior on them didn't just damaged the warrior, it also allowed the casters to stay where they are and continue their job. The damage it also prevented also saved the monk about 5-10 energy. If that enemy comes back, throw dirt in it's face and you again keep your back lines safe, allowing damage dealing casters to inflict damage and monks to heal.

The build I offered doesn't just protect, it defends. Obviously judging by the way you talk about certain skills and by the build you normally run, you are not a defensive player, and that's fine, but I have offered another way to play that doesn't put a ton of pressure on the monk. It is a different build and I think disregarding it's effectiveness simply based on damage it deals I believe is turning a blind eye to a very large side of what a ranger's role on the field truly can be.

Lasher Dragon · Jun 23, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

1) He can technically be re-poisoned, but its not doing you any good to extend the poisoning until your original poisoning wears off. Running Apply Poison is simply not as effective as running Poison Arrow with another prep, i.e. Kindle. Sorry. You're wrong. Disagree all you want, but I can deal more damage my way.

This is what cracks me up - you seem to be saying that the effectiveness of your build relies upon the damage you can put out. Sure, Rangers have some builds that can crank out the numbers, but that is a small percentage of Ranger builds. If you want to argue that way, well then my build completely blows yours out of the water - my Oath Shot trapper can output a lot more damage than some Kindle/Poison Arrow build. The thing is, for the most part a Ranger's damage potential is irrelevant. Rangers bring so much more to the table than shiny gold numbers.

SnipiousMax · Jun 23, 2006, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Rangers bring so much more to the table than shiny gold numbers.

QFT.

As for the Apply/PoisonArrow debate. I'm not a big advocate for poison in PvE (apart from areas with lots of Bosses, or farming) but in PvP, Poison Arrow cannot come close to the effectiveness of Apply Poison. The ability to spread poison and reapply it at will to the entire team as cheaply and quickly as apply poison allows is something Poison Arrow will never have.

xnightmythx · Jun 23, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Determined Shot: Just as with Marksman's Wager and Oath Shot, it's just not worth the risk when you consider the amount of arrows that are either blocked, evaded, or dodged.

Ummmm Ya lost me. Determined shot states:

Bow Attack; If Determined shot hits, you strike for +X damage.
If Determined Shot fails to hit, all of your attack skills are recharged.

How is this bad? 5 energy, and if it misses it recharges all of my attack skills. Am I reading this incorrectly?

"blocked, evaded, or dodged" Blocked I can see, but if an arrow is evaded or dodged didnt it fail to hit? Semantics?

Lasher Dragon · Jun 23, 2006, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

Ummmm Ya lost me. Determined shot states:

Bow Attack; If Determined shot hits, you strike for +X damage.
If Determined Shot fails to hit, all of your attack skills are recharged.

How is this bad? 5 energy, and if it misses it recharges all of my attack skills. Am I reading this incorrectly?

Well, what it means is, if you shoot Determined Shot at someone and it doesn't hit - be it from the target blocking, evading, interference, or the target moving fast enough to avoid it, ALL your attack skills will be treated as though you had just used them. Although I am not quite sure if the duration on the "recharge" is per each individual skill, or if it's set through Determined Shot. I see where the confusion lies, because you would think with a term like "recharge", it would be a good thing, but it's not.
You know how when a pet dies you lose your skills for 8 seconds? Well, this is similar, except it happens when you miss with that shot, it only affects attack skills, and I THINK each skill recharges at whatever duration it would normally recharge. Not sure on the last part as I never use Determined Shot.

xnightmythx · Jun 23, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Well, what it means is, if you shoot Determined Shot at someone and it doesn't hit - be it from the target blocking, evading, interference, or the target moving fast enough to avoid it, ALL your attack skills will be treated as though you had just used them. Although I am not quite sure if the duration on the "recharge" is per each individual skill, or if it's set through Determined Shot. I see where the confusion lies, because you would think with a term like "recharge", it would be a good thing, but it's not.
You know how when a pet dies you lose your skills for 8 seconds? Well, this is similar, except it happens when you miss with that shot, it only affects attack skills, and I THINK each skill recharges at whatever duration it would normally recharge. Not sure on the last part as I never use Determined Shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Determined Shot: Just as with Marksman's Wager and Oath Shot, it's just not worth the risk when you consider the amount of arrows that are either blocked, evaded, or dodged.

These statements are incorrect.

Guys I just went to Isle of the nameless and tried to shoot the Master of enchantments guy who runs around like a mad man. I loaded Penetrating Shot, Savage Shot and Determined Shot. Determined Shot does what I remember it doing, if Savage or Penetrating is used and you miss when you use Determined it recharges both of the other 2 skills and Determined as well! Its great! I think you guys miss interpreted the skill definition.

xnightmythx · Jun 23, 2006, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Sha’s Conjure Barrage Build:
-Savage Shot
-Penetrating Attack
-Barrage {Elite}
-Conjure <Element>
-Troll Unguent
-<Fun Ele Skill>
-Storm Chaser
-Ranger Variable

Im going to do UW tonight with a group of friends. This is the build I have chosen to take. The Ranger Variable will certainly be Rez. This will be my first time in UW that I am not going as a trapper. 109 ectos collected and I never fired a single arrow, lol.

Any suggestions? Or do you guys recommend another build?

Thx Guys.